ccf_jeff
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 12:32:33 PM
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KhelbenArunson: "...Personally I think that all of the CEO's for the major oil companies should be prosecuted for price fixing. Because in a nut shell that is what they are doing. If this was truly a free market decision it would be one thing, but it isn't, otherwise every gas stations price wouldn't be within pennies of each other. Someone would find a way to cut out the competition and prices would freefall. That isn't happening which tells me a bunch of guys in suits are sitting in a room saying "let's make the price of gas XXX.XX" And that IS price fixing, and it IS illegal."
I don't think the evidence you've supplied even comes close to supporting a case for prosecuting anyone. If the oil executives are indeed "sitting in a room saying "let's make the price of gas XXX.XX" " you are correct that it "IS price fixing, and it IS illegal."
If they are doing that I'm all for prosecuting them, BUT just because the price at the stations you see are within pennies of each other is no evidence that they are indeed doing what you charge.
Prices at the retail level are several links in the supply chain down the line from the oil tankers. I think most stations are locally owned and set their own prices.
I think prices are clustered around each other because that's what the market dictates. If anyone bumps their price too much everyone goes to the station down the road that is a nickel cheaper. That's pretty much what Gas Buddies is all about.
Competition is what is keeping the prices close together, not the lack thereof.
The underlying problem is that the worldwide demand for oil has gone up some 1 million additional barrels per day! The OPEC countries who control 80% of the world's oil supply have put a lid on production. THAT is why the price of oil has doubled in the last year. Collusion at the retail level is extremely unlikely to be the cause of the recent price spikes in gasoline. If so they are doing an unbelievably poor job of it as gasoline has only gone up some 35% or so despite a doubling in the price of the raw product from which it is refined.
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ccf_jeff
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5/15/2008 12:11:05 PM
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Thanks for the reminder on that 357revo. We were wondering why the prices in the St. Louis area had suddenly jumped relative to our neighbors. I imagine those "spot shortages" played a role in it. Too bad our local papers are too clueless to even notice, let alone actually find out the reason for us.
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KhelbenArunson
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5/15/2008 12:09:39 PM
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No, it's definately the greedy ones running the oil companies. Sorry but at this point I have absolutely no mercy for them. Personally I think that all of the CEO's for the major oil companies should be prosecuted for price fixing. Because in a nut shell that is what they are doing. If this was truly a free market decision it would be one thing, but it isn't, otherwise every gas stations price wouldn't be within pennies of each other. Someone would find a way to cut out the competition and prices would freefall. That isn't happening which tells me a bunch of guys in suits are sitting in a room saying "let's make the price of gas XXX.XX" And that IS price fixing, and it IS illegal.
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357revo
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5/15/2008 11:33:37 AM
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Relative to "all-time low storage supplies", I would point out that the EPA mandates a changeover in fuel composition at this time of the year. Anything in storage when the changeover goes into effect cannot be sold without reformatting it to meet the summer standards.
It makes perfect business sense to minimize the storage of fuels that can't be sold until Fall without reformulation.
This also explains why refineries are at low production rates at this time of the year. They have to shut down temporarily to make the physical changes necessary to output the summertime blends.
To add to this source-distribution problem, just about every district that wrote fuel format specifications into their Clean Air Act State Implementation plans also put their own tweaking on the formats, so there are literally dozens of different fuel mixtures which can only be sold in specific distribution areas of the country. This leads to localized fuel shortages every summer, because a shortage in one area cannot be eliminated by trucking [or piping] in fuel from a different distribution area.
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ccf_jeff
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 10:17:33 AM
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continued from below...
CostControl: "4. Why is the supply of ALL refined fuels currently in storage at an ALL TIME low when demand is ALSO currently so LOW!
FACT: Would it NOT be smart, prudent & in the BEST Interests of The USA to have a much HIGHER amount of refined fuel on hand in storage in case of National Emergency!"
First of all, I'm not sure that supplies are so low. I've read some articles that state reserves are pretty high. BUT, even if they aren't, I don't see why it is the responsibility of private companies to be storing supplies for U.S. strategic reasons. That should be the government's responsibility if it is anyone's. The President and Congress are currently fighting over the issue of our country's strategic reserves. If you think changes should be made, it would seem that focusing your efforts there would be more productive.
CostControl: "5. Why is BIG OIL sending USA OIL, refined products & fuels overseas when by doing that only makes prices even HIGHER for USA Consumers (Citizens)?
Answer & FACT: BIG OIL is sending USA OIL, refined products & fuels overseas to take advantage of currency exchange rates & the expense of USA Consumers (Citizens)!"
It only makes sense that any company would sell their products to the consumers who are bidding the highest prices. We have an inherent advantage with respect to the local refineries in that foreign bidders must pay a premium to ship the product overseas to get to them in addition to the cost of the product itself. If we aren't willing to pay as much as other customers are, why should a private company be beholden to subsidize us?
From your username it would seem that you are of a socialistic if not communist mindset. I personally disagree strongly with that as you might suspect from my replies here.
The free market has proven over and over again to be far superior to any eoncomy run by and dictated to by any government.
Canada has cost controls, by the way, but is paying more for their fuel than we are despite the monstrous oil sands being exploited in their country as we speak.
Cost controls and government subsidies are not the panacea many people wish they were.
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ccf_jeff
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5/15/2008 10:03:05 AM
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I didn't see the segment of which you speak CostControl, and maybe Mr Tillerson really is a no-good greedy SOB, but I don't agree with much of what you say here, or at least see reasonable answers to some of your questions.
CostControl: "It is the opinion of Mr Tillerson that the price for refined products is reasonable & fair!"
I certainly don't like the fact that prices have jumped so high, and feel the pain along with everyone else, but in the current context I think you would need to explain why you think they should be lower.
"In the current context" meaning that OPEC is holding production down and worldwide demand is up some 1 million barrels of oil per day! If you have some evidence that oil companies in general or Mr. Tillerson in particular is deliberately holding production levels down to keep prices high, I don't think you have a leg to stand on in blaming him or Exxon for this.
"1. Why has BIG OIL NOT even built one (1) NEW refinery in The Continental United States in OVER 37 YEARS!
FACT: EVEN BIG OIL could have built ONE (1) NEW refinery in 37 YEARS!!!"
From prior articles, it would appear that most communities fought tooth and nail against any new refineries here. The refrain has been "Not in *my* backyard!" I can understand that as I personally wouldn't want a refinery for a neighbor, but having said that I don't think it's fair to then blame the refineries who have made numerous proposals to build new ones for not building them when we reject their proposals. We've also enacted numerous laws and regulatory hoops for them to jump through and the costs associated with meeting those laws and rules makes them uncompetitive with refineries being built in less regulated countries.
They have expanded output at existing refineries though.
BUT, perhaps even more important in the current context is that U.S. refinery capacity isn't the bottleneck at the moment. Not too long ago it was, but demand *in the U.S.* is down. They have excess reserves and are not running at full capacity because the cost of the raw material has doubled, while the demand for their finished product is dropping at "only" a 35% increase. In short they can't buy the raw materials at current prices, refine it and sell it at a profit if running at near full capacity.
They aren't set up to produce enough diesel fuel, but that's a separate issue. They didn't foresee the major jump in diesel demand from abroad.
CostControl: "2. Why has BIG OIL suddenly stopped saying & using the SUPPLY & DEMAND Policy that they have endorsed & supported for so many years now that USA Consumer Demand which by the way has gone down for over one (1) year?
FACTS: Consumer demand has gone DOWN BUT prices & profits have gone up to ALL TIME RECORD LEVELS even during The Non-Hurricane & Non-Peak Driving Seasons!"
I don't think they've abandoned supply and demand at all. It would, of course, be as silly for them to do that as it would to "abandon" the law of gravity.
The fact of the matter is that worldwide demand is up significantly. U.S. demand is down, of course, and that is a good thing, but we are in a world economy and are bidding for the oil we must import against the other countries in the world. Worldwide consumption is expected to be *up* i million barrels per day despite dropping demand in the developed countries.
CostControl: "3. Why are USA refineries running at much LOWER production rates (capacities) 71-79% percent when compared to the HIGHER 88-96% production or capacity rates of 1999-2006?
FACT: Even during the Hurricane Katrina & Rita Crisis Period of 2005-2006 refinery production rates were much HIGHER than they currently are today!"
Ummm, for much the same reason car makers sometimes cut back on production --- because (U.S.) *demand* is down!
[Edited by: ccf_jeff at 5/15/2008 12:08:26 PM EST]
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CostControl
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5/15/2008 9:27:00 AM
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The NBC TODAY SHOW had The CEO of EXXON-MOBIL, Rex Tillerson (Age 55) who is the LEADER OF THE BIG OIL CareL was the Featured Guest on the FIRST hour of the show...
I sure hope that this segment will be on the NBC web site or on www.youtube.com because you ALL will have to see it to believe it!
I previously thought that the PREVIOUS CEO of EXXON-MOBIL (Lee Raymond) was greedy, corrupt, ruthless, rude, crude, cold hearted & bankrupt of ANY & ALL morals but Mr Tillerson has proven that he will not be outdone!
It is the opinion of Mr Tillerson that the price for refined products is reasonable & fair!
Mr Tillerson took numerous questions sent in by E-Mail (supposedly) & answered in a manner that would have made Fred, Frank, Gene & Ginger (BTW ALL DANCERS) proud!
Mr Tillerson did not seem bothered when pressured by Matt about the current fuel cost for low wage & everyday consumers & the impact on their lives!
IMHO I have NOT seen such arrogance & indifference since the the FAMOUS French Phase was spoken years ago..."Let them EAT cake" when Mr Tillerson said that the current prices was hard on everyone including himself!
Based on Mr Tillerson's salary & his current position with EXXON-MOBIL I SERIOUSLY doubt that he pays the current for even one (1) gallon of fuel & even IF he does his current salary I am sure will more than pay for it without any hardship!
Some REALLY BIG QUESTIONS that Mr Tillerson was NOT asked was:
1. Why has BIG OIL NOT even built one (1) NEW refinery in The Continental United States in OVER 37 YEARS!
FACT: EVEN BIG OIL could have built ONE (1) NEW refinery in 37 YEARS!!!
2. Why has BIG OIL suddenly stopped saying & using the SUPPLY & DEMAND Policy that they have endorsed & supported for so many years now that USA Consumer Demand which by the way has gone down for over one (1) year?
FACTS: Consumer demand has gone DOWN BUT prices & profits have gone up to ALL TIME RECORD LEVELS even during The Non-Hurricane & Non-Peak Driving Seasons!
3. Why are USA refineries running at much LOWER production rates (capacities) 71-79% percent when compared to the HIGHER 88-96% production or capacity rates of 1999-2006?
FACT: Even during the Hurricane Katrina & Rita Crisis Period of 2005-2006 refinery production rates were much HIGHER than they currently are today!
4. Why is the supply of ALL refined fuels currently in storage at an ALL TIME low when demand is ALSO currently so LOW!
FACT: Would it NOT be smart, prudent & in the BEST Interests of The USA to have a much HIGHER amount of refined fuel on hand in storage in case of National Emergency!
5. Why is BIG OIL sending USA OIL, refined products & fuels overseas when by doing that only makes prices even HIGHER for USA Consumers (Citizens)?
Answer & FACT: BIG OIL is sending USA OIL, refined products & fuels overseas to take advantage of currency exchange rates & the expense of USA Consumers (Citizens)!
One thing I will say for the EXXON-MOBIL CEO (Mr Tillerson) is that when asked & pressured by Matt about who he works for he was HONEST & that he said he works for HIS BEST Interests & the EXXON-MOBILshareholders best interests...BUT...What about the BEST interests of AMERICA & its citizens?
BIG OIL & Rex Tillerson is very much like a DRUG ADDICT in that they are both ADDICTED...The Drug Addict to drugs & BIG OIL to RECORD prices & profits at OUR expense!
SUPPLY & DEMAND is now a MYTH based on much lower current demand & MUCH HIGHER prices during the off peak driving & hurricane seasons!
USA Consumers cannot totally boycott ALL of the BIG OIL CareL but ALL USA Consumers can totally boycott the LEADER of The BIG OIL CareL (EXXON-MOBIL) & Mr Rex Tillerson!
EXXON-MOBIL cannot report RECORDS PRICES & PROFITS if ALL USA Consumers do NOT buy anything at all from them!
It is finally time for ALL USA Consumers to send a "strong message" to EXXON-MOBIL & BIG OIL by VOTING with OUR dollars ($$$$) & totally boycotting EXXON-MOBIL!
If you buy from EXXON-MOBIL you are just rewarding & encouraging continuation of BIG OIL's current policies & EXCESSIVE PRICES & PROFITS!
I for one will NOT support Mr Rex Tillerson in his quest for EXCESSIVE GREED & PROFIT at ALL of OUR expense!
Hopefully you will choose to NOT support EXXON-MOBIL & Mr Rex Tillerson & that you will not REWARD The BIG OIL Thieves by buying from other sources!
In short...Let HIM eat CRUMBS!
[Edited by: CostControl at 5/15/2008 11:27:40 AM EST]
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357revo
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5/15/2008 9:26:12 AM
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There is not one form of alternative energy for transportation that is cheaper than fossil fuel gasoline or natural gas.
There is not one form of alternative energy that can be produced in the quantity needed to replace a significant portion of the transportation energy used, AND NEEDED, by our country's economy.
And the money that the politicians want to give to "developers" of alternative energy sources have not changed that situation in the past 15 years.
Therefore, developing alternative energy sources is just another way of ensuring that the cost of transportation fuel will stay as high, or higher, than what it is today.
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Sixty4nhalf
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5/15/2008 9:25:39 AM
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Oh my why don't they use the TRILLIONS of $ they made last year! "refiners are going through a traumatic period. In a time of record gasoline prices, some of them actually lost money in the first quarter" wanna talk about traumatic how about those of us that got a 3% (or less) pay increase and everything went up over 40%
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357revo
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5/15/2008 9:20:37 AM
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Domestic oil producers are making money, because they are getting the benefit of the high cost of crude oil.
Foreign oil producers are making money, because they are restricting the oil that they pump out of the ground to keep the available world supply low.
Domestic refiners are making money, IF AND ONLY IF they have domestic sources of crude oil.
Domestic refiners dependent upon foreign crude oil are LOSING MONEY because they have to buy their raw material at the world supply prices dictated by those limiting the crude oil supply.
Meanwhile, domestic oil producers have identified Billions of barrels of crude oil supplies. However, they cannot develop these natural resources due to the cabal of Democrat politicians and Big Environment [Sierra Club, National Resources Defense Fund, Wildlife Unlimited, etc.].
It is the artificial restriction of domestic oil production that is driving some American refiners into bankruptcy, even as the American driver is getting killed by rising gasoline and diesel prices.
PERIOD.
Just this week, the U.S. Senate once again voted down a proposition put forth by Republicans to allow development of ANWR oil resources. Just this past month, Big Environment sued the government to prevent them from allocating drilling rights in other Alaskan waters. And every time domestic oil drilling comes up for discussion, forced into that by Republicans in the House or Senate, it gets voted down by the Democrat-Big Environment cabal.
Hillary and Obama both want a "windfall profit tax". That gets paid by the consumer, just like every other tax dollar paid by industry.
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pulpwood
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 9:08:08 AM
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It comes back around, and now they don't like it, buck up ya babies and take one for the team!
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ccf_jeff
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5/15/2008 8:58:13 AM
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KellysDad: "drifterON is right. But the affect on them may actually be good. When the raw product that refineries buy, barrels of oil, goes up so high that they cannot be profitable in the long run, they have to stop operations (no need to bleed cash for a lost cause).
THEN, the oil pricing bubble will bust."
Unfortunately, the "oil price bubble" may be mostly wishful thinking on our part.
The Oil Nonbubble - NY Times
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MCM34
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5/15/2008 8:56:27 AM
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Have they ever thought of investing in alternate energy and get out of the refining business? Oil prices would continue on the way up and we would sooner or later end up using some form of alternate energy, that would be the time former refiners would be making the profits. Big Oil would price themselves out of the market so then who would have the last laugh?
Just a thought as nothing else seem to be working.
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KrazyDawg
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California
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5/15/2008 8:52:30 AM
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No one cares if the poor suffers why should we feel the same. Treat others the way you want to be treated.
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svtbolt2001
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Houston
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5/15/2008 8:52:00 AM
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Well they should have been spending their profits on adding infrastructure instead of fat bonuses.
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bowler48226
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Detroit
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:49:24 AM
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Now the refiners feel our pain.
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laddyboy62
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:48:12 AM
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yeah...like i feel bad for them
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NissanGirl
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5/15/2008 8:47:15 AM
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Poor ickle refiners!!
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Gerund1
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:45:49 AM
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I do not have sympathy for the refiners. And I find it difficult to beleive them crying the profit blues.
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gasie1
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5/15/2008 8:45:28 AM
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OPEC and Big Oil is making most of the money.
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WillyG
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:45:25 AM
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Really ?
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Cerberus2k
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5/15/2008 8:34:48 AM
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I have no sympathy for any refinery or oil company.
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aalix
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5/15/2008 8:34:47 AM
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Sounds like a start to lowering/controlling gas prices. One part of the production & distribution channel is starting to hurt.
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ts08
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5/15/2008 8:32:55 AM
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business can not always be profitable..you gotta report a lost at some point...like all the consumers are losing out more money. Just stop buying oil and pressure oil companies to drop their prices...
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RochBear
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5/15/2008 8:31:10 AM
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The problem is there are some independant refineries, who have to buy all their oil on the open Market, but they have to compete against Big Oil refineries, who can have a loss, since the parent company is making huge profits on the crude oil it pumps. So again Big Oil wins, and the small guy gets the shaft. The little independant refinery will end up either closing, or selling out to big oil, thus increasing Big oil's Monopoly.
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hangupanddrive
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5/15/2008 8:30:18 AM
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My sympathy to the oil refiners. Boo Hoo!!
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RAD3
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5/15/2008 8:29:39 AM
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Cry me a river! Maybe the oil execs needs to take Economics 101 again to understand the supply and demand theory!
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KellysDad
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5/15/2008 8:27:00 AM
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drifterON is right. But the affect on them may actually be good. When the raw product that refineries buy, barrels of oil, goes up so high that they cannot be profitable in the long run, they have to stop operations (no need to bleed cash for a lost cause).
THEN, the oil pricing bubble will bust.
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spunky4443
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5/15/2008 8:25:18 AM
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BOO-HOO-HOO-HOO.
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drclark
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5/15/2008 8:24:10 AM
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wahhhh
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TheThing
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5/15/2008 8:22:36 AM
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Good for them.
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drifterON
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5/15/2008 8:22:04 AM
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sorry to the refineries but it had to happen sooner or later
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grandma5
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5/15/2008 8:20:55 AM
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So now they will shut down some refiners and that will allow gas to continue to increase. At $3.97 a gallon I'm just not sure how much more they can continue to increase.
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gasforus
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5/15/2008 8:17:17 AM
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So sorry, Charlie
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BoerneWatch
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5/15/2008 8:14:34 AM
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Only producers of oil and oil rich countries want higher prices for oil.
Who would have a motive to "play" the futures market to raise prices?
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eaglev
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Oklahoma City
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:09:54 AM
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Don't the oil companies own the refineries?
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phatride92
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:08:01 AM
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The other oil company divisions are pulling up the bottom line!
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brogan56
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5/15/2008 8:06:56 AM
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Such anger, profits are a bad thing in a capitalist society??
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bicycler
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5/15/2008 8:06:52 AM
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whitemiata; Some truth but very little because the oilbarons have record profits to fall back on! The consumer does not! As Lookiehere says "they will just raise prices to make up for it." ---AND THEY DO ! It is not like selling boats or TVs etc. Most N.Americans need gas!
I must ask ; Do you have a vested interest, shares in the oil industry, employment? I admit that I have--I buy gas!
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Dennis783
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5/15/2008 8:06:39 AM
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consumption is falling yet prices continue to rise??/
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fill_r_up
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Milwaukee
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5/15/2008 8:04:47 AM
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And should I shed a tear when they robbed us when crude was low and they wiped their a** with all the profits!
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Brockvillian
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:03:38 AM
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I feel so sorry for the Oil Refinery's out there. NOT!!!
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fill_r_up
Rookie Author
Milwaukee
Posts:28
Points:8,935
Joined:Mar 2008
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:01:52 AM
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Maybe they can outsource like everyone else!
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Mindtravel
Rookie Author
Rhode Island
Posts:31
Points:8,440
Joined:Apr 2008
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 8:01:25 AM
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So how is it that we the comsumer can ever possibley get ahead??
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whitemiata
Champion Author
Albany
Posts:4,975
Points:1,084,835
Joined:Mar 2005
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 7:58:19 AM
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Mooseman, there are more factors involved in a market economy than just consumers asking for companies to lower their prices. they have to be concerned about their own suppliers, and workers, and production costs. yes it is hard to be in business. you can get angry at the big oil companies all you want, but it will take more than whining to get us to a place where we are not held hostage by oil producing countries who change production on their own whims, sometimes to hurt those who buy from them...
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Lookiehere
Champion Author
Alabama
Posts:2,897
Points:590,400
Joined:May 2005
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 7:56:48 AM
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They will just raise prices to make up for it!
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tobasco
Champion Author
Los Angeles
Posts:2,622
Points:737,365
Joined:Mar 2004
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 7:56:06 AM
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They had to see this coming.
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scrounger
Champion Author
Vancouver
Posts:5,705
Points:1,571,185
Joined:Mar 2003
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 7:55:11 AM
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aw shucks
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acknot
Veteran Author
Seattle
Posts:354
Points:536,810
Joined:Sep 2003
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 7:54:32 AM
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So sad.
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Sealer
Champion Author
Charleston
Posts:1,713
Points:187,480
Joined:Jan 2008
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Message Posted:
5/15/2008 7:54:18 AM
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And, AC-302, you forgot to mention that about 50 cents (or more) of that 93 cents you mentioned is gas taxes. And retailers end up paying about 10 cents a gallon in credit card fees when they sell it
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